Category: Blog

During Martin’s trip to kick off the work, a meeting with Gino was needed. The preparation and meeting notes are below.

Preparation

I am coming to Colle di Compito at the end of the week.

I am available on:
• Thursday 23rd in the afternoon
• Friday 24th all day
• Monday 27th all day
I can also be available at the weekend if necessary.

I want to do everything possible to make sure it is a successful visit.
To ensure that, please:

1. Confirm a date and time to meet with Claudio from KR together with his plumber and electrician.
2. Confirm a date and time to move furniture with Claudio and his team.
3. Send updated quotes from KR for the internal and external work including: heating, cooling, plumbing, electrical, photovoltaic solution, insulation of the roof (with two options).
4. Send a quote from KR for the swimming pool.
5. Clarify whether the latest swimming pool solution has been formally submitted or just sent for a preliminary opinion of the superintendent (and when that was done).
6. Confirm that you have submitted the Cila for the internal works on the house (and when that was done).
7. Confirm that you have made the formal submission for the external works on the house (and when that was done).
8. Send the plans, solutions and other documents submitted to the comune.

To give me a chance to translate, print and review the quotes and submissions to the comune, I really need them by Tuesday afternoon at the latest.

We do want to get started on the internal works as soon as possible, but I have some concerns about the permissions. Can we be sure that we will have the permissions / responses from the comune quickly enough to allow the KR work to continue uninterrupted?

We think it would be best to fit aluminium shutters and that means getting them from someone other than Tambellini. It makes sense to fit them while we have the scaffolding. Can KR get and fit the shutters, or do we need to find a specialist shutter company?

If possible, I would like to meet with Tambellini to discuss the new door (and when the windows will be ready). Is that something we should do together or can I just go down to his workshop?

Thursday 23rd

Met with Gino and Alex to discuss permissions, quotes, contracts etc. These are my notes:

• The most recent submission for the permission for the pool was made to the comune on 18th Feb. This is the 4th revision.
• The submission for all the external work including the photovoltaic panels was made to the comune on 13th Feb.
• It generally takes around 20 days for the comune to do whatever they do and send it to the superintendent for them to grant permission.
• That means the external one is due to be sent to the superintendent now. Gino chased it up by phone at the meeting. They get notified by PEC when that happens. PEC is some special secure business email they use out here.
• Once with the superintendent, the external one should take a further 20 days (i.e. due around 25th March). The swimming pool one takes a little longer 20-30 days.
• Once we get a positive response for the external one, we’re in business. When we get a positive response for the pool, there us a further application that takes around 40 days.
• These are all calendar (not business) days.
• The pool will not fail. It just takes time.
• The external one is complicated by the photovoltaic panels. For those, we could get:
  1: yes roof
  2: yes garden
  3: no
• We discussed the yes garden option further and it’s not attractive. You need to surround it with hedge to hide it from view and that can cast shadows on the panels.
• I got pretty bloody stressed out about the panels as I’d thought we were pretty likely to get a yes. Apparently, it depends on whether the superintendent reads the application properly. If not, it could all go through on the nod. If he does, nothing is certain.
• It’s stressful as we’re looking at electric heating and cooling. That can all run on the main electricity supply so we can install it and then plug in the panels if and when we get the permission for those on the roof. I’m inclined to proceed on that basis and, if we get knocked back on the roof panels, just wait till there are more sensible rules re panels in centro storico.
• It’s normal to start work with permissions in progress and KR should be comfortable with that.
• The second topic was converting the quotes into contracts in time for KR to move furniture on Monday and start working that week.
• Klodian will come tomorrow with his electrician and plumber. We’ll go through the detail including marking up sockets and tracks. They can then revise the quotes based on the detailed requirements. I’m looking for a sensible reduction in the figure for assistance to electrician, plumber etc now we have no gas heating system.
• We can then sign up to the modified quotes putting anything panel related to one side.
• They will build in a mechanism such that only items undertaken and signed off by Gino will be charged.
• While Klodian is here I want to get a handle on how long the internal, external and pool elements will take. Firstly, to see if things can be organised so he’s not stop start. Secondly, to get some certainty about when we can have the house back.
• We need to decide about the roof insulation: none, whole roof, only the living room.

Laying out exactly what you expect in writing is the way to go. Over the last three weeks, we received:

• Quote from Michele.
• Quote from KR’s plumber (still includes GPL heating).
• Agreement from Gino to request full quotes from the various builders.
• Agreement from the comune for photovoltaics on the roof (also needs approval from the superintendenza di belle arte).
• Updated plans for the external works (to be sent to the comune for permission).
• Quotes from the KR electrician and plumber (including option to use heat pumps for both heating and cooling).
• Updated plans for the swimming pool (fully in ground).
• Combined heating and cooling solution.

Zoom meeting with Gino, Alex and Setfano (no Andrea). Very difficult communication via Zoom. Connection rubbish. Language difficulties exacerbated.

The main topic was the heating solution. The quote for just the heating was in excess of €25,000. We discussed looking into the option of using air source heat pumps for both heating and cooling in order to remove the need for radiators, boiler and GPL tank. We do not anticipate being in the house during the winter that much (at least for now). Also, if we get permission for photovoltaic panels, we could run the heating at a low level for free when the house is empty (good for keeping the damp out).

I asked Gino to get a quote for this alternative option from the same contractor so that we could see what level of saving could be made.

Gino had come through with three quotes against the updated computo metrico (only Michele missing) and I had translated and compiled them into a spreadsheet for easy comparison.

Gino informed me that one of the builders (KR Costruzioni) had done work for Riccardo Martinucci.

We also had quite a lot of discussion around the elements for assistance to plumber, electrician, etc. I was not and could not get clear about how these could be sensibly estimated (piece of string stuff).

As the Zoom meeting was about to terminate, we agreed that it would be best if I sent questions by email rather than attempt another Zoom meeting.

Riccardo

After the meeting I had a call with Riccardo to get his opinion on KR. He rated them highly and would happily use them again. The other interesting thing he brought up was that, when he used KR, he had to get involved coordinating between them and the electician and plumber he had selected. The boss of KR had told him that it would have worked better if he had come to them for everything as they would have then been able to coordinate everything.

Follow up email

Thanks for the meeting today.
The Zoom connection was not great, but I think the meeting was worth having.

Questions about the quote from Italtermo

The item “D’OPERA” relates to the supply of 20 radiators at EUR380 per radiator.
There is also an item “FORNITURA DEI RADIATORI IN ALLUMINIO ISEO BIANCO H 600 ELEMENTI” which also appears to be related to supply of radiators.
Can you help me understand what these two things are?

The quote for the heating system is very high so we are wondering if there is a more cost effective solution.
For example, could the cooling system be modified so that it can use a heat pump to blow hot air in the winter and cold in the summer?
Perhaps that could be supplemented with electric heaters and one or two wood burners.
I understand that gas is probably cheaper to run than electricity, but we should get some benefit from the solar panels even in the winter.

Questions about the quotes from the builders

The point I was trying to get clear was the reliability of the quotes for the items relating to assistance to other trades (items 24 to 29).
Have the builders calculated all the assistance needed and included reliable and fixed costs?
Or have they made some kind of educated guess and included an indicative cost that could go up or down?

Is the IVA for all the work in the quotes from the builders 10%?

Is it a sensible option to give the internal work to one builder and the external work to another?

Other questions

I spoke with Riccardo Martinucci about his experiences with KR Costruzioni.
He had only good things to say about them.

Riccardo suggests that we ask the construction company to quote for everything and take responsibility for the whole project.
This is the way we work here in the UK, so this makes sense for me.
He said that when he worked with KR he had different plumbers and electricians and that coordinating them was difficult.
The owner of KR told him it would be better if he had responsibility for the whole project.

Do you think KR, Trifino and Gigli could be given all the details and asked to quote for everything? Let me know what you think.

Next steps

• You will get two more quotes for plumbing, heating and cooling so that we can make a comparison.
• Tomorrow, you will meet with the termotechnico from the commune and confirm we can have the solar panels on the roof.
• Tomorrow, I will send what I can about the earlier example quote from the electrical contractor.
• You can then request quotes for the electrical (and solar panel) work that will be more reliable.
• Gigli will send his quote on Sunday or Monday and we can compare with the quotes from KR and Trifino.

Gino sent through:

• The updated computo metrico
• The plans for the GPL heating solution
• A quote for plumbing, heating and cooling

As we were now in London gearing up for our move into our new flat, we told him we would not respond straight away.

In fact, we didn’t get back to him until 2 January when we confirmed the content of the computo metrico and requested a Zoom meeting to discuss the quote. I also requested a full set of quotes from builders, electricians and plumbers in advance of that meeting so that we could have a complete picture (apart from the pool).

We went to a meeting at Gino’s office to discuss the updates to the computo metrico and a bunch of solution designs they had finally managed to put together.

This was our last meeting with Gino before returning to London to move into our new home there.

A couple of days before this meeting, Gino had sent the computo metrico to four builders including Michele. They would now need the updated version including the changes for the false wall.

Gino indicated that work could start in February or March next year and we told him that we would return as soon as the Schengen rules permitted (mid February) to start packing the house up ready for an early March start. We’re used to being told something could rather than will happen and then being disappointed. Fingers crossed this time!

During the meeting, we felt like we needed to make it clear that Gino is our geometra (not Andrea). Martin might have done that a bit brutally, but we think the message probably got through. If we pick Michele as our builder, it would not go well if he had to deal with Andrea on a regular basis and there are those red flags raised about Andrea too. From our point of view, Andrea seems more enthusiastic than considered which is of some concern. We would not be happy for Gino to delegate our project to Andrea.

We never saw Andrea again

We asked for a meeting as everything seemed to have gone quiet since the contractors came to visit. We had also received notification that the comune wanted a totally in-ground pool so as not to spoil the look of the hill. This seemed crazy to us as the existing pool is not visible from the street. We had also received a quote from an electrician that seemed way off the mark (e.g. TV points in every room, an intercom system) .

Gino said he’d bring one of the contractors that he had recently sent the computo metrico to.

We also sent this agenda in advance to focus everyone’s attention.

Meeting with the contractors

We started off with the building contractor, electrician and plumber going through the planned works and giving proper consideration as to how that should be done (finally). As there would be a fair bit of electric trunking and central heating piping to get around the house, a false wall across the front of the first and second floor was proposed so that substantial tracks in the fabric of the walls could be avoided. This seemed like a sensible approach to us.

As a result, Gino would need to send out an updated computo metrico to the four contractors.

Meeting with Gino and his guys

Once the contractors had left, we addressed the topics in our agenda. The main points to come out were:

• A new proposal for the pool would need to be submitted. We suggested keeping it in the same position, but building the terrace out so that it extended in front of the proposed visible portion of pool wall. Our main reason for wanting to take this approach is not to lose any of the paved area (so that it would continue to be large enough for sun loungers. They seemed to think this was a reasonable approach.
• Once we started digging into the quotes from the electrician, it turned out they were made without reference to our requirements and was simply an example quote for a house of the appoximate size of ours. Pretty disrurbing really.

We arranged a follow up meeting for 7 November.

Fallout

After the meeting, Martin had a discussion about the “example quotes” with Riccardo and as a result we sent the following to Gino on the following Monday:

I have to say that we found the meeting last week very unsettling. In particular, the fact that the quotes we were sent for the electrical installation and the photovoltaic solution were just off the shelf examples was worrying for us. 

Our friend tells us that to get accurate quotes we need technical drawings with the location and specification of each element and the routes of the pipes and cables. From that will follow accurate technico computo so we can get reliable quotes.

We have yet to see the technical details / drawings of

• the photovoltaic project
• the heating project
• the cooling project
• the electrical project
• the strengthening of the floor of the living room on the second floor
• the opening of the new door in the kitchen

We have seen a plan of the proposed locations for the photovoltaic cells for the permission, but no details of the analysis of how many panels are required and how much storage.

Similarly, we have seen a diagram of an LPG tank, but no assessment of the boiler or the number, size and location of radiators that we require.

The same applies to the air conditioning. We have yet to see the technical assessment of the size and quantity of the units to adequately cool the rooms.

Assuming all these assessments exist, please send them through to us. We need to see them to be reassured that any future quotes relate to our requirements. If they do not exist, please take all steps necessary to ensure that they and the relevant technical drawings are available and sent to us before our meeting on 7th November.

Finally, please confirm the time and location of that meeting and let us know what dates and times this week you will be visiting with the electrician, plumber, etc.

The intention was to light a fire under Gino.